Engine oil

[Deleted User]

yamaha_fizzy wrote:

i had to go get some emergency oil last week, guy in halfords said they dont do anything at 20w, thickest they did was 15. :o

The thickest thing in Halfords is their staff.

[Clive]

Had a dig on the net. Seems manufacturers put it about re the 2 year deal. However, if oil is poorly stored the different components can slowly separate. Not sure in reality if it is a problem, after all sitting in a nice plastic container is nothing like being in an engine, where modern oils can last 20K.
So I will happily use my oil, even that can that has been in my garage a few years :)

[JohnD]

No, no smiley, bodging is bodging.

And the engineering of Moggie etc trunnions is entirely different,  in that they are made of cast iron (possibly with a steel insert?) not bronze.   Bronze is an amazing (and expensive!) alloy, that doesn't wear, in fact the steel against it does.  You will note that Triumph front suspension failures are ALWAYS of the upright, or rather the steel pin that enters the trunnion, NEVER the trunnion itself.
Steel wear particles would become embedded in the bronze and accelerate wear, if they are not allowed to escape - hence the slots right through the threads in a Triumph trunnion that let them settle to the bottom, out of the threads, and the specification for oil.  Grease would keep the steel wear particles in suspension.

There is no harm in modifying original designs and specs IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

John

PS As has recently been said in Parliament, the "Sell by" and "Use by" notes on products are almost entirely for stock control and rotation purposes.  Only in a few items do they have relevance to deterioration of the product with age, and even then have a large margin of error and a larger legal liability margin.
  Examples - petrol, because of its volatility, but few people put fuel away in storage, they use it, so no 'use by' date is given.  
Tyres - light and heat sensitive, they harden and become brittle.  Cover spare tyres up and keep them in a cool place.   Six years is then the maximum.
KNOW what you are doing!  J.

PPS  I don't always know what I am doing, but I make a point of finding out what I should do and why.

[Deleted User]

The trunions are high on my 'do away with these' list.

[Scimher]

Aah, John....finally, illuminating comments, that are serious 'food for thought'.....instead of inane, fatuous comments about 'sawdust' & 'bodyfiller'......thankyou! I'm sure, in an ideal world our cars would be all re-built, immaculate and never wear...(but that would probably mean that they would never be driven!) Thanks for all the other comments as well, everybody.
I guess what I was trying to say..(ask!)..is if there is wear in the vertical links, does oil, with it not providing the 'cushion' of grease. accelerate the wear....??...(or, as somebody suggested, it might be increased due to the grease taking on the properties of 'grinding paste'!) Geoff.

[heraldcoupe]

4080 wrote:

I guess what I was trying to say..(ask!)..is if there is wear in the vertical links, does oil, with it not providing the 'cushion' of grease. accelerate the wear....??...(or, as somebody suggested, it might be increased due to the grease taking on the properties of 'grinding paste'!) Geoff.

In terms of lubrication, there will be a pretty thin film at the contact surface irrespective of whether grease or oil is used. It will give the impression that grease has a capacity to take up any play when felt by hand, but this won't have any relevance under the forces exerted in operation.

Grease will keep metallic particles in suspension between the working surfaces. The oil doesn't do this, allowing particles to settle, as Colin has already stated.

Cheers,
Bill.

[Mikeyvitesse]

So when my local classic friendly garage serviced my car 5 years ago (when I was too busy with non-Triumph related work to do it) and put grease in the trunnions, should I have taken everything apart and replaced with gear oil? Instead I've tried to pump in oil every year which has displaced some grease but there's probably a fair bit left in there mixed with the oil...

[junkuser]

"You will note that Triumph front suspension failures are ALWAYS of the upright, or rather the steel pin that enters the trunnion, NEVER the trunnion itself."

    From what I have read  on this site it would seem corrosion at the top of the thread is a common factor, rather than wear, so I suspect that the salting of roads could well be involved.   Possibly salty water is held inside the rubber "seal" sitting in this area.
The resultant pitting sets up a stress point leading to the failure.
The reduction in diameter of the upright at this point is already localising the loadings to the region also.
  
   Confession.
                     I have only used Castrol LMM grease it the trunnions of my Spitfire 4 since building it out of old components in 1976 and it has covered 150,000 miles since then running 155x13 (now called 155/80x13) radials on 4.5" rims.(Zephyr rims on Spitfire centres).

The stresses on the trunnions may well be lighter in a Spit than a Herald and we don't have salt on the roads in my part of the World.

My soul feels better already!

[nang]

Neither do we but I've known of a Vitesse to loose a wheel. Surely the hole up the centre of the vertical link isn't helping the strength of this component.
Decided to hell with the expense and fitted Canley's trunionless kit to my Spitfire.

[uksnatcher]

nang wrote:

Decided to hell with the expense and fitted Canley's trunionless kit to my Spitfire.

Canleys trunnionless kit is the ultimate solution,  but is costly and for most overkill but does add peace of mind.

The upright/trunnion setup is more than fine in good condition, they will handle bigger grippy tyres IE more grip/stress etc.... early GrandPrix cars used them.

First off you need to inspect the uprights you have fitted right now, basically remove the wheel, caliper, hub assem (remove from the stub axle via the wheel bearings) , track rod end,  top ball joint, possibly back plate...then unscrew the upright from the trunnion. 1 hour each side tops.

Clean off all oil/grease and inspect the bottom upright threads with a magnifying glass or camera close up / macro mode.
Any cracks or rust and its toast...bin it..you dont know how old it is..metal fatigue in steel is age related not how its lubricated, thats the brass trunnion grease affects and the grinding affect of metalic particles suspended in grease, leaves play in the trunnion threads and flex in the bottom upright metal threads increasing the stress cracks in the steel threads.

Its irrelivant how you lubricate it at the mo if you dont know the state of the metal threads.
Find out the condition of the upright threads before you worry about should i grease or oil.....my uprights appeared fine with no play and i oiled them...wish i had removed and finely inspected them tho as you can see a crack developed into faliure :

[Deleted User]

uksnatcher wrote:

Canleys trunnionless kit is the ultimate solution,  but is costly and for most overkill but does add peace of mind.

Costly vs that damage and the new parts?

[Casper]

My understanding is that the thing about oil is that whenever the steering is used, it is lifted up via the grooves and introduced afresh to each of the weight bearing threads and, being hypoid, it is well designed for high (sheering?) forces.  Grease, after having been forced from the threads just sits wherever it ends up (probably in the vertical grooves) and any that is picked up by the VL threads is wiped off as the thread enters the trunnion thread.
Have you ever considered using a good quality grease in your gearbox?
C.  

[JohnD]

nang wrote:

Neither do we but I've known of a Vitesse to loose a wheel. Surely the hole up the centre of the vertical link isn't helping the strength of this component.
Decided to hell with the expense and fitted Canley's trunionless kit to my Spitfire.

The hole has almost no effect on the durability of this part.  See the chart below - it compares the stiffness of a solid bar with a tube of the same outside diameter (OD) with a wall 1.5mm thick , for use as roll bar material.  If stiffness is an analogue for 'strength', which it isn't strictly, but anyway.   As the tube/bar gets bigger the ratio of the wall thickness to the OD goes down and the difference in stiffness rises.  I can't quote a formula, but clearly that ratio is inversely proportional to the change in stiffness if you replace a bar with a tube.   The upright inside the trunnion is, from memory, 3/4"? Say 20mm?   A 20mm tube is about half as stiff as the same bar.   The hole in the upright's  male part is ?3mm wide, so the wall is more than 8mm thick.   Compare with the chart at smaller bars, say 12mm, where the difference is trivial.  So I don't think that hole will cause more than  a trivial weakness!

Anyone know why the hole is there?
JOhn

[lordleonusa]

I believe that the hole is there to store oil, so that the trunnion doesn't run dry, before it is next topped up at the recommended service interval.

L

[heraldcoupe]

The Standard 8 & 10 use the same upright casting as the drum braked Heralds and Vitesse/GT6, albeit without the drilling for the oilway. Instead the trunnions have grease nipples in the underside, and are designed to use grease.
Anyone know if these cars have a tendency to snap uprights?

Cheers,
Bill.

[junkuser]

When were the vertical grooves introduced in the threads?
Had a look at two uprights in my "junk", one from an early Herald and one from an early Spit and neither had grooves.  
The picture above does not appear to have vertical grooves.
Possibly they were put there to aid oil movement as Casper says.
They would be a disadvantage with grease as they would allow it to pass up past the threads rather than force it to follow around and over the thread.
Am I misinterpreting where the grooves are?

[herald948]

heraldcoupe wrote:

The Standard 8 & 10 use the same upright casting as the drum braked Heralds and Vitesse/GT6, albeit without the drilling for the oilway. Instead the trunnions have grease nipples in the underside, and are designed to use grease.
Anyone know if these cars have a tendency to snap uprights?

I've yet to see it discussed on the Standard Motor Club Forum, if that's any indication!  :) Again, though, the lubrication was to be more often on those cars than on the Herald line.

[heraldcoupe]

herald948 wrote:

Again, though, the lubrication was to be more often on those cars than on the Herald line.

Indeed, I don't think the cars were ever exposed to the institutionalised neglect as when the lubrication points are hidden with blanking plugs.

Cheers,
Bill.

[junkuser]

Another factor which seems relevant to the stresses the uprights are subjected to is the poor steering geometry on these cars.  A common problem with leading steering arm design.
With trailing steering arms it is easy to aim them at the centreline, just forward of the centre of the back axle, to achieve the correct degree of "toe out" on turns (Akerman) but not so with leading ones, hence the scrubbing of the front tyres on lock with our cars.

From what I have read of the upright failures in Triumphs, it would appear that they usually occur at low speed and when turning,
Under these circumstances there would be a degree of increased lateral loading due to the poor steering geometry and this would be made worse with wider tyres/wheels with the increased grip and resistance to distortion.
This would be the last straw for a fatigued upright, especially if it had a stress point caused by corrosion.

Of course I may well be off my rocker.

Comments?

[JohnD]

Junkuser, the grooves are inside the Trunnion.
John

[junkuser]

Ah, thanks John. My misunderstanding of the post.
Must have a look inside a trunnion.

[Scimher]

The experts out there can confirm the different vehicles that used Herald (& its derivatives) suspension.....I believe the Elan & Europa featured it, as well as certain 'clubman' racing cars of the period....it implies the inherent design was deemed to be sound for the period & that it would absorb stresses way beyond what would normally be exerted on a road car. Having said that, we get back to 'uprights' that could be half-a-century old and would be finished off with 6" wide wheels and the latest low profile rubber!!  

[Scimher]

The experts out there can confirm the different vehicles that used Herald (& its derivatives) suspension.....I believe the Elan & Europa featured it, as well as certain 'clubman' racing cars of the period....it implies the inherent design was deemed to be sound for the period & that it would absorb stresses way beyond what would normally be exerted on a road car. Having said that, we get back to 'uprights' that could be half-a-century old and would be finished off with 6" wide wheels and the latest low profile rubber!!  

[Deleted User]

When the trunnion system was invented for the Herald, skinny crossply tyres were the order of the day and their grip on the road was to put it mildly, marginal.
Moving smartly onwards, the same system aquires 155 tyres with a far bigger footprint and stiction and new we're seeing cars with 15" wheels and very wide ultra low profile sticky tyres that have no give in the sidewalls feeding loads the designers never dreamed of into the trunions.

And people wonder why they break? The only wonder should be how they last so long!

[Scimher]

EXACTLY, 'WOLFRACE'!!!!!!!