RobPearce Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 The vertical studs you took the nuts off hold the pedestal casting. There are a couple of different types but I think it's a 4-cyl vs 6-cyl thing. The horizontal bolt you removed passes through the pedestal. I was thinking you shouldn't remove that but it's OK to do so as the clamp will bolt back in the same place. However, you will need to remove that pedestal, as it holds the drive dog in. It's probably just a bit stuck with age. Give it a few good whacks with a hammer, and try to tap a wedge (wood chisel or similar) in below it. There's a measured thickness of gasket under it (when re-fitting you're supposed to measure clearance and select enough gaskets to make it up) so a chisel tip should fit. Once you've got that off, the drive dog gear will pop out if you rotate it anti-clockwise. Make sure you note the position at which it stops riding up the gear, because that's the angle you will need to re-fit it from. Once out, you'll see that it has a flat tongue on the end of the lower shaft, which you can't see from above. That's what engages in the oil pump shaft. You will also be able to see the slot in the pump shaft down the hole. The Haynes manual has quite a good drawing of the bits (I'm looking at a Spitfire one so I can't give page numbers for a Herald one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 Oh that is reassuring - I will give it a go later after my "Abendbrot" and report back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppy916 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 If funds allow I'd bin the Rimmer's pump and buy a Chris Whitor one, part number 217488RP, these have a much better build quality and are almost the same price, my new Rimmer's pump when I checked it was way out of tolerance in ever way possible when i purchased it , this is on my GT6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 This may well be the case George. I have successfully removed the pedestal casing as Rob suggested and yes, it was lined with caked oil making it very difficult to get out. I kept tapping it with a small hammer left and right until it started to wobble and then managed to ease it out. This exposed the slot of the pump like you said. I have in my tool kit a reversable screwdriver with a cross on one end and a flat on the other. This fitted perfectly to my LiPo drill which is reversible. But after several minutes trying, no sign of any oil - and I have overfilled the sump. So I have poured fresch oil in ( into the distributer shaft not the rocker box) and will leave it overnight. If I am lucky it will seep in overnight and prime itself - ha ha ha ha 😎 Will try with the drill again in the morning but it looks like I will indeed have to remove the sump and put the old pump back. I have just looked at the Chris Witor website and I think the pump 217488RP would fit a Vitesse but not a Herald. It has a flat on the shaft not a slot. Perhaps the mounting bolts are different as well. Nice idea though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Quoted from Guppy916- If funds allow I'd bin the Rimmer's pump and buy a Chris Whitor one, part number 217488RP, these have a much better build quality and are almost the same price, my new Rimmer's pump when I checked it was way out of tolerance in ever way possible when i purchased it , this is on my GT6 I used a replacement pump with no problem and it didnt need vaseline to start pumping. I think its highly unlikely that Antonia's pump needs 'binning' - at worst it might not produce as much pressure as one with the closest tolerances..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 Unfortunately Glang, it seems not to be pumping at all at the moment 🙁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Antonia is it possible that the pump is mounted in the wrong position? As you know it has 3 fixing bolts which I think are equally spaced so it could be put in 120 degrees wrong. Alternatively the pump body could be correct but its base plate has been rotated. The body has an outlet port at the top which must align with the hole in the engine block while at the base of the body the suction tube must be fitted on the opposite side.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescrapman Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Take the oil pressure switch out and squirt oil in there, refit and then run the drill backwards and see if that sorts it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 Glang it is very very possible that I have mounted it incorrectly. The 50% chance..........of getting it wrong. I will try with the oil in a minute or two but _I fear that the sump will have to come off....again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 I have just removed the sump and of course, the pump has been installed incorrectly. There is only a 33% chance with the three bolts and getting the lower plate to line up properly with the main body of the pump. So I had no chance really. Vollidiotin! The chambers and how they mate together are obvious but.......... I have now reinstalled the pump but it is still possible to orientate it and bolt it up in two possible positions. If I could post a picture I could show what I have done. The manual is not helpful but I will now look at any available utube videos. Where I have bolted it up now, before checking elsewhere, I can see the spring of the pressure releif valve through a hole. Having read that this valve when under high pressure returns oil direct into the sump, this is for me logical - but I need to check first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 found one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 That video confirms how I thought the pump seemed to be mounted in the workshop manual - the suction tube as far towards the front of the engine as possible and then its top discharge hole on the opposite side at the back. Im now prepared to stick my neck out and say that it will pump ok😎 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 Yes, I have now turned it through the distributer shaft using a reversable drill and the oil gushes out. Now I am trying to put the pedestal back in. Probably the worm gear is not fully home - it has to fit into the slot of the pump drive and I think it is not quite right. Perhaps turning the engine with a spanner on the crankshaft nut will wiggle it in....hopefully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 I hope it all goes back together ok as the installation of the distributor can be very frustrating! Its easy to have it so the spark comes at the right time to the wrong cylinder or the wrong time at the right one or both wrong. People tend to forget that during only one revolution of the distributor the crank turns twice so correspondingly the pistons will come to the top position twice..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 Good prediction glang - The Distributor was quite difficult to put back together. The shaft did not want to go into the pedestal and then the timing clamp came off! Needless to say, it did not want to start but - in turning over the engine just on the starter, the green light went out and the oil pressure gauge shot up. That never happened before so that is quite pleasing. So I turned the engine to TDC and checked the rotor arm position and points opening and tried again. Nice oil pressure on the starter but no running engine and then it backfired - a loud "pop". Not good. I am now studying the manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 The distributor drive gear almost never drops straight in. If it's engaged on the cam gear then turning the engine over will rotate it until it lines up with the oil pump and then it will drop. You may need to do up to two full revolutions of the crank. Double check that you inserted it at the position it disengaged to, otherwise your distributor won't align and the ignition timing will be way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 The timing is most likely out but I am not quite sure why. The motor has not been turned over and was still at TDC as I put the distributer back in with the rotor arm in the correct direction. As you say, the drive gear did not drop straight in but I did turn the crank backwards and forwards until it did. Then the pedestal went back on and dropped in nicely. However as explained above, the distributer shaft had great difficulty in going into the pedestal. PErhaps I had done something in trying to get the pedestal out previously. Anyway I had to remove the pedestal again and push the dist. shaft into it on the bench. That is when the timing clamp came off. Thence it went in as a unit. The Haynes manual describes how to reset the Dist. timing from basics. I will do that tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 If the no1 cylinder is at TDC on compression, the rotor arm is pointing to the number one lead, the points operating heel is close to the cam peak and the other distributor leads, in anti-clockwise order, are connected to cylinders 3, 4, 2 then you cant be far away from success! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 I suspect that the TDC at the moment is somehow not on the compression stroke but it is easy enough to check. Tomorrow , hopefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 The distributor drive dog slot is offset only slightly - it's possible to put it in 180 out and not notice until you can't put the distributor in. I don't know why the shaft would be difficult into the pedestal, though, except that there's a rubber O-ring which is probably hard with age. Should ideally be replaced but not to worry if you don't have a new one to hand. While here, did you set the clearance on the pedestal? It's a matter of pushing it home without gaskets, measuring the gap with a feeler gauge, then selecting enough gaskets to make up 4-8 thou more than you measured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted November 14, 2018 Author Share Posted November 14, 2018 It is not only possible, I have! The 50% chance rule strikes with me again. 😳 I read the Haynes manual section on Ignition timing and moved the crankshaft until the TDC markings on the pulley lines up. Then I removed the rocker cover to check the valves. The manual mentions that for No 1 cylinder to be at the compression stroke, the No. 4 Cylinder valves should be "rocking" which I find confusing. For my logik the valves on No 1 cylinder should be closed and therefore the rockers can be moved very slightly as if you were going to adjust the gap. They were. So then I removed the distributor cap and sure enough, the Rotor arm was 180° out. I undid the nuts holding the pedestal down, lifted it up enough for the distributor drive to disengage and then moved the rotor arm to the correct position. Then I put everything back and the engine then ran. It was very lumpy running, but it was running. So now I need to fine tune the timing but I have done that before. I did not set the clearance at the pedestal - there is a very thin gasket on it now which of course I kept in position. I will do that at another time, the car will shortly be going into its winter sleep. Thanks for all the help everybody, especially Rob and Glang. 😗 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Great, well when you have it all set up let us know what your oil pressure is, preferably when its up to temperature.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Excellent! Glad we were able to help you. Quoted from Antonnick- The manual mentions that for No 1 cylinder to be at the compression stroke, the No. 4 Cylinder valves should be "rocking" which I find confusing. Yes, it's not the clearest wording. It means that as you turn the crank a bit either side of TDC, the valves are both moving a tiny bit. Like you figured out, the valves on the cylinder that's at TDC firing, end of compression stroke, must both be fully closed, so their rockers will have clearance. The opposite cylinder, No. 4 in this case, is at TDC between exhaust and intake. The exhaust valve is just closing, while the inlet valve is just opening, so both are slightly open and moving the crank will cause one to open while the other closes, kind of a rocking motion, if that makes sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppy916 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 To get the pedestal to line up I cleaned the top of it and put a felt tip mark on and a mark on the engine block mating face, then when you drop the pedestal in if it's not right you know how far to rotate it, from the original position Rob good call on shimming it correctly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonnick Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 I am away for a few days in the south of Germany but will be back at the Weekend. I cannot take the car out on the road in winter conditions firstly because it does not have winter tyres and as a rule, I do not let it get wet. Thus it may be that I will not be able do a proper road test until the springtime. Perhaps I can let the engine warm up in the Garage and fine adjust the Timing. That will give me a Chance to check the pedestal shims as suggested. Once again, I am very grateful for the help - the German Forum is not very aktive and does not have many members anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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