Brake servo for GT6 Mk1

[MTR]

Hello,

I want to buy the Lockheed Servo Kit for my Gt6 Mk1. I found on ebay this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-LOCKHEED-TYPE-REMOTE-BRAKE-SERVO-KIT-TRIUMPH-FORD-MG-/380429975367?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item589364bf47
Is it ok for GT6 Mk1? I asked the seller but he said: "I don't know. I'm MGB specialist..."
Thanks in advance.
Maciej

[cook1e]

Looks the same as the Lockheed one I've got fitted to my GT6 MK3 so yes should be fine for a MK1.

[TimW]

Why do you want a servo?

[Deleted User]

339 wrote:

Why do you want a servo?

my thoughs exactly, no need on a Triumph, get the ones working properly and you should not need one.

[black6osprey]

bobyspit wrote:

my thoughs exactly, no need on a Triumph, get the ones working properly and you should not need one.

There are plenty of things that are not needed on a Triumph but I wouldn't put a brake servo very high on the list. When it comes to brakes why not a servo?

[Deleted User]

4196 wrote:

There are plenty of things that are not needed on a Triumph but I wouldn't put a brake servo very high on the list. When it comes to brakes why not a servo?

because the new servos are not that much cop. I for one am one for adding non-Triumph parts to a Triumph, but ill never fit a servo.

[black6osprey]

bobyspit wrote:

because the new servos are not that much cop. I for one am one for adding non-Triumph parts to a Triumph, but ill never fit a servo.

I'm not sure what you base that on. They work as well any modern car and certainly perform better than not having one. If you would never fit one and I therefore assume have never fitted one, how can you possibly offer an opinion?

[Paudman]

I never had one on any of my Triumphs, and never felt the need for one (although the drum braked Coupe was scary!).
I fully understand the OP wants one, but I think the point other posters are making is that a well-setup car shouldn't need one. It's the difference between 'want' and 'need'.... also 'advice' and 'opinion'...  ;D

[Cerberosa]

Late Gt6's were fitted with servos my six did, however my spitfire didnt but the brakes never felt heavy.
You can probable live without it, im not sure what the brake pedal feel is like without one on a six.

As far as im aware a servo only makes braking controls have a lighter "feel" if my spitfire was anything to go by i doubt there that heavy in a six. But if they are heavy and you do want a lighter feel i could understand wanting one. I had to replace the servo on my six and the unit sold is one that basically made for multiple cars, make sure it is fitted securely as i didnt do such a swell job an mine and it bashed into my electrics and that caused some melting and another trip to the garage.

first time iv felt i can pass some knowledge along even if limited!

im learning im learning!

:)

[black6osprey]

490 wrote:

I never had one on any of my Triumphs, and never felt the need for one (although the drum braked Coupe was scary!).
I fully understand the OP wants one, but I think the point other posters are making is that a well-setup car shouldn't need one. It's the difference between 'want' and 'need'.... also 'advice' and 'opinion'...  ;D

Yes agreed these cars don't actually need anything that wasn't originally on them but this doesn't stop the many mods that are deemed as fine and dandy. A brake servo will improve braking and a mod that improves safety is one of the best mods to carry out. Just don't understand how the guy can say don't do it if he has never done it and has a much lighter Spitfire. The original poster only wanted to know which servo. Best Quailty has changed his brakes completely so what's the issue?

[mpbarrett]

I fitted one to my GT6 but not until I had got the brakes working well (sorted the rear brakes, new fluid, pads and discs).
My GT6 (late Mk3) had one as standard so you could argue I was returning to its original condition, but the real reason is that its easier for Libby to drive with the servo as she is used to driving modern cars with very light brakes. And I now prefer it, its easier to switch between modern and Classic cars whent he brakes have a similar feel.

Mine was purchased from an MG dealer as it was the cheapest around. Seems to work fine.
just remember it wont make the car stop any better just makes the pedal lighter.

BTW just do what ever you are happy with, its your car. If fitting a servo makes you enjoy driving the car more then do it!

regards
mike

[aar0sc]

I've never understood (And I'm not having a go here) how a servo can make brakes "better". Lighter, yes. Easier to apply, yes. But better? In my Spit 1500 I can lock the front wheels at 70mph, with a reasonable push. It's not got a servo, and has two relatively new callipers, braided brake lines, EBC greenstuff pads, and DOT 4 fluid. Master Cylinder was replaced by the previous owner three years ago (or at least there's a receipt for one, there's also a receipt for halogen headplamps but I don't have any!). You'll get the maximum braking force just before a wheel locks up (yeah, this comes up in Unit 1 Physics :P ), and with my brakes I can 'feel' through the pedal (it's quite hard to describe, this) when they're about to lock - I have to back off slightly if I brake heavily from 50mph to 20, say, as at 20 it'll start to lock. Another thing I don't get is why you'd need bigger brakes. I understand brake fad, so if you wanted to go down lots of Alpine descents or race then I'd fully understand why you'd want bigger brakes, so as to dissipate the heat better (Ditto with slots/grooves/drilled). But if my brakes can lock up at 70, and stop me firmly, I don't understand how four pot callipers or whatever would make a difference. Enlighten me learned peoples :)

[Clive]

I can understand why some people want a servo, especially if "other half's" drive the car. It makes the brakes feel more modern and so less scary to the unenlightened. I guess the same applies to anybody who has a less than healthy leg (yes, I know a couple of people in that situation)
What does worry me is the unknown quality of some of this stuff, though to be honest we often have little alternative. So yes, by the servo and fit it if that is what you want. However, make sure the brakes are functioning correctly at the moment, and that you have decent quality pads, discs are in good condition, rear brakes adjusted correctly.


Aaron, sometimes the theory needs practical to make it work in the real world. Yes, you are correct, but larger brakes will be more effective, with less effort. Plus larger brakes will be less prone to fade. I have been through the dilemma of what to do for brakes, and settled for vented capri discs with spaced callipers. One reason being so I wouldn't upset Tim and have to fit bigger wheels ;) Should be more than adequate. I hope.

[black6osprey]

3122 wrote:

You'll get the maximum braking force just before a wheel locks up (yeah, this comes up in Unit 1 Physics :P ), and with my brakes I can 'feel' through the pedal (it's quite hard to describe, this) when they're about to lock - I have to back off slightly if I brake heavily from 50mph to 20, say, as at 20 it'll start to lock.

Lets just remove all the brake servos out there and watch the carnage :)

Ive had many cars with no servo. I even bought a new Lotus Elise back in 2000 at a time when going fast in cars was more imprortant to me than owning a nice house and  surpisingly it had no brake servo. The car only weighed about 650 kgs and for such a quick accelerating car to have no servo was absolute madness and the amount of near death experiences (all brake related as drove it very hard) I had in that car were enough for me to know that no brake servo = press brake not much happens, press brake harder and then press like your in a flintstone car, lock up and hope for the best. Not surpising that my Lotus no longer exists and was written off after I sold it. Wonder if it was the brakes that caught him out.....

I realise these car are bloody slow by comparison but unless you want one leg much thicker than the other a servo can only be a good idea on most cars.

[Paudman]

4196 wrote:

Lets just remove all the brake servos out there and watch the carnage :)

How about: "Let's remove all the brake servos, then teach drivers how to drive again." Too many people treat driving like an escalator - get in, press a few buttons, and arrive at a destination. Somewhere under all that bluetooth, air conditioning, quad sound, ESP, intelligent suspension, intelligent steering, lane control, proximity control and powered steering, there's actually a machine. I grew up with none of these and learned to drive with none of these and funnily enough never had any carnage.
HOWEVER: when we have car crashes because of these gadgets, i.e. mobile phones, Dvd players, CD players, sat nav, coupled with modern drivers who can't do without these gadgets but also can't even fill their screen wash bottles, you have to wonder if they're safe in control of a potentially dangerous vehicle.
I can get off me soapbox now and go back to the original discussion of brake servos.... ;D

[black6osprey]

490 wrote:

How about: "Let's remove all the brake servos, then teach drivers how to drive again." Too many people treat driving like an escalator - get in, press a few buttons, and arrive at a destination. Somewhere under all that bluetooth, air conditioning, quad sound, ESP, intelligent suspension, intelligent steering, lane control, proximity control and powered steering, there's actually a machine. I grew up with none of these and learned to drive with none of these and funnily enough never had any carnage.
HOWEVER: when we have car crashes because of these gadgets, i.e. mobile phones, Dvd players, CD players, sat nav, coupled with modern drivers who can't do without these gadgets but also can't even fill their screen wash bottles, you have to wonder if they're safe in control of a potentially dangerous vehicle.
I can get off me soapbox now and go back to the original discussion of brake servos.... ;D

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion but I thought you wrote off an MG Metro Turbo does this not count as carnage ;)

I hope if you have any disc brakes, ABS etc on your cars than you instantly remove as they are clearly underneath your driving prowess  ;)

Seriously though I'm surprised a brake servo is causing so much opinion as this forum usually reads more like Hot Rodders than Club Triumph but hey ho each to their own.

[Dannyb]

It's all up to the individual. There is not right or wrong answer. I have had Spitfires with and without. I prefer with.

[Clive]

Ah, if the brake master cylinder is matched to the brakes in a system designed to work with no servo, all should be well. Srvo'd systems tend to use much larger bore MC's, which is why brakes feel rock solid and no feel when the engine isn't running.

Sounds like the lotus just used too large a bore MC from the factory, which is just lazy and corner-cutting. Typical of them really.

But I don't think we should all get in a tiswas over this. Servo's have a use, but are too often fitted to mask an underlying problem. And yes, brakes on our cars ARE very effective, with our without a servo.

[black6osprey]

cliftyhanger wrote:

Sounds like the lotus just used too large a bore MC from the factory, which is just lazy and corner-cutting. Typical of them really.

The problem with the Lotus was that the car was designed and originally supplied with MMC brakes but unfortunately after 1998 these were changed to standard vented discs due to supply problems and this had an adverse effect on the brakes. It is still the best car I've ever owned by a country mile for sheer driveabilty, grip and controlled back end slides around roundabouts :). I did end up facing the wrong way down the A444 once but I was a bit over confident and it bit me. It also had a removable steering wheel which always appealed to me and made it hard to steal. Just a shame it didn't stop very well.  

[Deleted User]

Ill have it that if you remove servos on all cars out there and watch the carnage! But modern cars are designed to use them and not without.
Go ahead and fit your servo and I hope you are happy with it, I also hope you have no issues with it, I fitted a servo to a mates car, the quality of the stuff made these days is crap, I would not bother myself. My mate got hold of new old stock bit of kit and he likes his car with it on, I prefered it wothout (better feel).

Which ever way you go, good luck.
Rob

[black6osprey]

One last thought. The Spitfire I dont think ever had a brake servo and therefore it was deemed not necessary. The GT6 had it as an option and finally became standard on the late Mk3. Someone must have made an informed decision that it was a good idea on this car. I have test driven 5 different GT6 before I got mine, 2 of which didnt have brake servos and the braking on the standard car is okay, it works, but the servo assisted cars brake much better. Now the question of whether the current servos you can buy are any good quality wise is a different question and one I can't help on.

[James]

I had a lot of fun in a 2.5 PI Spit once— that didn't have a servo and stopped perfectly well any number of times.

Servo may also compensate for disc size— and therefore wheel size—

[Nick Moore]

Well, as I'm old/lazy/feeble (feel free to cross out an which don't apply) I plan to fit a servo to my GT6. Are there any original Powerstop servos still out there? Here in Oz, PBR make VH44 servos, but I'd prefer an original one if they're still available and not hugely expensive.

As my GT has tandem circuit brakes, the plan is to fit the servo to the front circuit as the factory did. I'll probably have to change the rear slave cylinders to maintain some semblance of balance...

[Richard B]

jcarruthers wrote:

I had a lot of fun in a 2.5 PI Spit once....

Sorry James, are you saying that driving with a 6 cylinder boat anchor in the front of a Spitfire was fun?  

(shhh)  (dance)

[Nick Jones]

Careful Richard, I think you'll find the one he's thinking of has had the engine moved back a foot or so......  ;)

Brakes and servos.  I've debated this one in a Vitesse context for years, all mixed in with trying various pads and different sized master cylinders.  My conclusions:

Pads make a HUGE difference to the pedal pressures needed.  NOS asbestos pads (especially Lockheed ones in my experience) are great.  Closest modern equivalent I've found is Mintex M1144.  Ferodo DS2500 is pretty good too and seems to be immune from pad fade too - little bit wooden from cold and fiercely expensive though.  From there it's downhill.  Standard motor-factor ones seem to be made from greased cardboard and Greenstuff not much better.

I also found that discs that have become permanently rust marked don't seem to be able to generate much bite even if really scrubbed with aluminium oxide paper.

On a Vitesse, a 5/8" master cylinder (standard is 0.7") gives (slightly) reduced pedal pressures and slightly longer travel.  The combination of this and DS2500 pads is working for me at the moment.  Mintex 1144 do give more bite but we have faded these on a couple of occasions, though not during what could be called "normal" road use, so probably fine for most.

Pedal pressures are still quite high though and I do still consider returning to a 0.7" master and adding a servo - I'm just not sure where I'd fit the servo.

Nick