Engine back in

[Trifire]

My 13/60 is all back together,and I was quite keen to fire her up, however it was never going to start first turn of the key. I have a few problems

1. The fuel pump is not delivering any fuel, i did put some fresh fuel in to the pipe to the carb but still no joy.
2. The starter motor is intermittent.
3. I have a spark at the plug but it looks a bit weak, it has electronic ignition, I'm not sure about the quality of the rotor arm.

As the battery lost its power I knocked it on the head for the night, hopefully with a bit of luck and some reading up on the forum and manuals I will have it running soon.

[Freebird]

1. Has the fuel pump got a priming lever? if so give it a few pumps until it draws fuel from the tank. If not, disconnect the pipe behind it and try to extend it so you can suck on it and pull fuel through.
2 and 3. Make sure you reconnected the braided earth between the bellhousing and the bulkhead and that all connections are tight.

[Trifire]

Cheers,
The pump hasn't got an external primer, I will try sucking on the fuel pipe. My father in law suggests taking off the pump and then trying to prime it manually with its internal lever.
I replaced the earth strap when fitting the engine. Its fixed from the sump to the chassis, is it worth moving it to the bulkhead.
Could the solenoid be broke.

Regards
Sam

[Freebird]

Quoted from Trifire

Cheers,
The pump hasn't got an external primer, I will try sucking on the fuel pipe. My father in law suggests taking off the pump and then trying to prime it manually with its internal lever.
I replaced the earth strap when fitting the engine. Its fixed from the sump to the chassis, is it worth moving it to the bulkhead.
Could the solenoid be broke.

Regards
Sam

Hi Sam

You father in laws idea is a good one. You should be able to feel resistance at the lever, if not it suggests the diaphragm inside is split.

Yes, move it to the bulkhead, preferably where the battery earths. The chassis could be partially insulated from the bulkhead.

Indeed, the solenoid could be broke but try moving the earth strap first. if no better to this:

With the ignition off, try putting a stout screwdriver across its big terminals. there will be sparks and the starter should turn the engine. If it does, either the solenoid is broken or the connections to it are dodgy. If it doesn't turn the engine over, suspect a dodgy starter motor or the connection to that.

Glen.

[Trifire]

Hi all,
I have spend a couple of hours on the engine and have had some limited success. I have fuel through to the carb and the fuel pump now works. I have put a new earth strap from bell housing to bulkhead. I replaced the solenoid and the starter now turns the engine over. I replaced the rotor arm and the spark seems stronger.
The engine will still not start, not even a cough or splutter. I have used new spark plugs but after checking I notice that these are for the Herald (NGK BP6ES). The new Toledo engine should be BP5ES, i know this is the heat range and shouldn't really affect starting but the only other thing is timing.

[Jordon T]

Do you have a spark at the plugs? Are the HT leads in the right order (1342)? Is the timing set in roughly the right area? If I remember correctly the Toledo engine is set at 9 or 10 degrees BTDC static. Is there fuel in the float bowl? Are there any vacuum leaks?

Usually as long as you have a spark and fuel these engines always start.

[Dave1360]

Hi Sam,
A couple of other possibilities that you may not have checked already:
Is the carb actually getting fuel into it?  I had a float stuck shut due to my own stupid fault recently.  Not sure which carb you've got but can you check the fuel bowl is filling up?
Distributor 180 degrees out?  Swap the leads across (1-4 and 2-3) to check.

Cheers,
Dave

[Trifire]

Thanks for the quick replies.
I have a spark at the plugs, the plugs are wet. I have swapped the leads about. The leads are 1,3,4,2. is it a case of taking out the distributor and replacing 180 degrees.
Cheers

[Dave1360]

Sounds like fuel and spark are both good so it's pointing towards timing being badly out. When you say you've swapped the leads about, did you actually swap lead 1 to plug 4 and vice versa and also swap 2 and 3?  I'm not sure if the distributor can just be removed, the shaft rotated by 180 deg and refitted - you can on some non-Triumph cars but I've not taken mine apart that much yet.

If you've got fuel, spark and compression then you should at least get a cough out of it.

Just had another thought, but not sure how relevant it is with electronic ignition.  I've had a spark when holding the plug to the head but not under compression.  That turned out to be a dodgy condenser which isn't relevant here, but a dying coil might have a similar effect.

[Trifire]

Thanks Dave,
I have swapped the leads as you have suggested.I have put a small amount of fuel down the bores and nothing, it must be the timing. I was told it was timed up on no 1 cylinder and it was just a case of fitting the distributor. i might leave it for a few days and come back to it with a fresh mind.
Cheers

[Dave1360]

Not even a cough?  You should get something even if the mixture and timing are way out. Do you have a spare coil that you can swap over?  You could also try starting it in the dark with your head under the bonnet and see if the HT is arcing over somewhere.  Other than that, I'm out of ideas.

[Jordon T]

Dave is right, even if the timing is way out you should still be getting a cough or misfire.

Are the valve clearances set at 10thou?

This is a conundrum!

[Matt306]

I was cranking mine the other day for ages ... grrrr then spotted a wire from the Dizzy to Coil off... reattached and woosh

[Pete Lewis]

make sure no1 copmpression stroke is actually where it is.

for easy of turning remove the plugs , stick thmb over no1 plug hole . turn engin till air is pushed past thumb. now turn to align TDC pointer,  remove dizzy cap check the rotor does point to where No1 ht terminal is, , if not move No1 lead to the rotor point and start 1342 from there.

alternative remove rocker cover, get crank  tdc pointers aligned, the rockers for 1 and 2 valves should have gaps,
if either of theses two valves are being opened then rotate crank one more turn ...then check where  rotor is pointing

Pete

[Trifire]

[quote=peterhlewis]make sure no1 copmpression stroke is actually where it is.

for easy of turning remove the plugs , stick thmb over no1 plug hole . turn engin till air is pushed past thumb. now turn to align TDC pointer,  

Which is the pointer please, the engine is from a Toledo. I'm not sure where the pointer is. I can see the mark on the pulley, does that line up with the pointers.
Thanks

[Nick Jones]

The longer pointer in the middle, lined up with the slot in the pulley should be TDC.  Each successive, shorter pointer is probably a 2º interval.  Should be etched on the tab if rust hasn't eaten it.

Nick

[Trifire]

Thanks Nick,
I hope to have a go this weekend.
Cheers

[Trifire]

Hi guys,
Its been a few weeks but I'm pleased to say that the engine is running. After a few frustrating attempts to get the car started, checking the timing, replacing most of the ignition bits etc I gave up and waited for Tony my father in law to visit and bail me out. We spent a morning checking everything again but still could not get it to start. I felt pleased that it was not an obvious fault as he is a mechanic and worked on these cars back in the day.
After lunch he put a squirt of oil down each cylinder and it fired straight away, a little bit of carb adjustment and it ticks over nice and smoothly.
Still a bit of work to do for the MOT, but hopefully I will be back on the road soon.

[Trifire]

Update. I had the car running and it ticks over nicely with no smoke and everything seems well. Back in June I took it for it's MOT which it passed and have not done much with the car, other projects.To cut a long story short, the car lacks performance. it takes bit of time to get to 30 and it struggles to get to its max about 55.
The ignition timing has been checked, plugs and coil changed, carb turned using a colortune. Its almost like the brakes are on slowing it down, but they are not. As I have more time now i'd like to remedy this but before I take it to a garage has anybody got any ideas.
Cheers Sam

[thescrapman]

reading back thriugh the postings you said you needed to put a bit of oil down the bores to get it to fire.

That implies it was lacking in compression and needed the oil to help raise it.

Do you know the history of the engine? I wonder if either the rings have failed, or it has a 1500 head on it.

Cheers

Colin

[Trifire]

I'm thinking compression as well. I did buy a cheap compression tester but it did not work, sent it back but had the same with the replacement, no readings on the dial, but must have some compression for the engine to run.The engine came through a guy that was initially selling through ebay. It was supposed to have been rebuilt. I did ask about pistons and rings but he said they were fine. Buy cheap pay twice.
Cheers for the quick reply.

[thescrapman]

Check the depth of the head, or any part numbers stamped into it. Might give us a clue

[Goody]

If you have to put oil in the bores to get it to start, then yes most likely compression.  I am sure someone here close to you will come with a good tester.  Even a cheap one should work.  If after a good run and will not re start then I think the rings are gone.  (timing will also affect hard re start)  Ole quick method, have a friend turn engine and hold your thumb over the plug hole and you will feel compression or not.  Of course only do this with a cold engine.  And before a Yorkshireman chimes in, remove the plugs for thumb test.

[Mark Hammond]

I wondered on the timing too.  Too far retarded perhaps?  Worth a check first.

M.

[Trifire]

The car will start ok without putting any oil in the bores, and it ticks over nicely. I have bought another compression tester and have found the following.
Number 1 cylinder shows 80, No 2 = 78  No 3 = 55  No 4 = 70.
So I do have a problem with compression. What would the best way to resolve this ? Not keen on doing another DIY engine swap.
Sam