wire wheels

[Docman]

I recently bought a used set of wire wheels for my MK3 GT6 to convert from the factory steel discs.
It appears as though there are slightly different diameters of splines, as one pair of hubs fit one pair of rims reasonably well.  To try those hubs on the other pair of rims, and the splines won't engage.
To try the other set of hubs on the first pair of rims, and the splines slip readily.  The fifth rim is a little snug on one set of hubs, a little loose on the other set of hubs - I was going to use this rim as my spare.
The spinners on one pair are obviously newer (less abused) than the other.  I'm guessing that these may have come off different cars.
Are there different sizes from different sources/manufacturers, has anyone else experienced this?
I think that I am OK for now, but if I have to replace something, I fear proper fitment.
All of the hubs look to be in reasonable condition with "flats" between the grooves.  
I haven't mic'ed them yet.

[smithy]

Wotcher mate - I've never had a set of wires on a Triumph, but what you're describing is the kind of effect you get through wear, I suspect, since I had the same on my Jag, which was wearing its original ones.
I love wires, but since thery're such a bugger to clean and notorious for going out of true and being difficult for tyre choices, I think you and I are in the minority which is why this threads a bit lonely, perhaps.
You don't say if your set are painted (I expect they are), and if so - all the better. My fingers are still complaining about the two day effort required to clean my wires - which used to make them (my fingers) swell something 'orrible, ouch! Looked good though.  :)

[MarkB]

Hi rharris8

I agree with Smithy, it does sound like either the splines are worn inside the wheels or more likely on the adapters. I have a couple of sets of painted wire wheels and have been going through them trying to sort the best ones out. You need to clean the splines off completely. I used Cellulose Thinners, which takes all the grease and muck off and you can then get a good look at the splines. It is clear to see wear on the adapters as the splines can be seen to bow and curve slightly looking a little smudged in places, where on the good ones the splines are dead straight and cleanly cut. The wheel should push on quite easily but when the spinners are tightened there shouldn't be any movement felt between the wheel and spline.

Cheers Blue

[Docman]

Thanks!  

Closer inspection and trialing the different adapters with the wheels (off the car) shows that all 4 adapters have varying degrees of wear (1 may be still usable) and 2 of the wheels may be still usable (maybe 3 if I am not too critial about the spare).  
The splines on one wheel hub was so mushroomed that the (reasonably) good adapter couldn't engage, only the adapters worn into sharp points would go on.  The 1 adapter that was worn with flats, spins freely in that wheel!  This wheel's a pretty boat anchor, for sure.
So, it seems at the minimum I need to buy 3 (or 4) adapters and 2 wheels, new.
Can I buy just the splined wheel hubs, new. and rebuild them?

I may start by buying 1 new adapter to check my remaining 4 wheels for rotational play and better compare the condition of all the wheel splines.  I might determine that none are salvagable and go back to the steel discs, before getting in over my head.

First I need to know  - If there is just the slightest bit of movement, how much risk is there of destroying both the new adapter and the splined wheel hub?  I imagine that the worse the condition is, the quicker the damage will occur.

This car will only be used for occasional touring.  Am I being overly cautious about having even the slightest bit of play?

[neilnaz]

In answer to your last question I think the answer is no!

You do not want any play in wheels whatever they are. Wire wheels have a poor reputation needing high maintenance, special care (etc). I would avoid worn wires at all costs and do without until you can afford a very good second hand set or new. In my opinion and it is my opinion wires do not look good on squaretails, Stags, TR6s (etc) they suit the 60s cars much more and can look lovely but the wear and safety issues are still prevalent.

I think that just because the car is for occasional pootling doesn't mean faulty wheels will be OK - would you drive along with frayed brake hoses?

Just some of my thoughts - please excuse the opinions they are mine and not intended to cause offence...

[Metal Mike]

On my car i had to cut the studs short cos the wirewheels did not fully locked on the hubs.

[josok]

523 wrote:

On my car i had to cut the studs short cos the wirewheels did not fully locked on the hubs.

Does that mean you can't use steel wheels anymore?

Regards Jos

[Metal Mike]

2157 wrote:

Does that mean you can't use steel wheels anymore?

Regards Jos

i can still use steel wheels , but not alot of thread( 2,5 cm )
i think its just enough. :o

[Docman]

I know about trimming the studs to get enough clearance to the wheel.  My 1st TR4 had steel discs that I converted to wires.  That car got wrecked and I recovered those wires for my second (TR4A). Again stud trimming.  It's been too long to remember, but I don't think the splines were perfect by the time I finally sold that car, but I still drove and had fun with it.  I bought my TR6 nearly new and it was factory equipped with wires.  Wire wheels are all I personally associate with Triumphs so it's a natural for my recent GT6 purchase.  I've already got both the 2 eared and hex (more correct for 1972) hub nuts (although I like the look of the 2 ear better).
I may put the steel discs back on while the car is being sorted and restored, but I won't be satisfied until I have a reliable set of wires on the car.  This is look I'm planning:
Sorry neilnaz, this is still pretty

[neilnaz]

As I said it was only my opinion and I am glad you like it. Just do make sure that whatever wheel-tyre combination you use that you do not compromise on safety.

Enjoy your car, Neil

[Docman]

neilnaz wrote:

As I said it was only my opinion and I am glad you like it. Just do make sure that whatever wheel-tyre combination you use that you do not compromise on safety.

Enjoy your car, Neil

Thanks Neil.  My TR(s) were from my 20's, I'm now in my 50's.  I try not to be as much of a risk taker as I did 30 odd years ago.  I am running 155-80s on my wires.  It's a shame because I have a new set of 175-70 from my disc rims that I was advised to not use.  There just isn't much variety in the 155-80 size like there used to be.  From the used set of wires I bought, only two wheels have new tires on them - Primewells, something made by Firestone and sold in the US.
Which of the rears is the drive wheel, left or right (as sitting in the vehicle).

[Pom Down Under]

Short studs and thinner wheel nuts are what should be there otherwise the wire wheel will not seat on the shoulder of the adapter properly.
With standard studs and wheel nuts they might feel okay at first, but the wheel actually sits on the wheel nuts - two or three miles later you'll hear a mild rumbling noise from the wheels and when you take them off the wheel nuts will be angled on the top with small marks on the inside of the wheel.
Painful experience speaking.
Still hesitant to change or shorten the studs as I feel safer on, and like, my minilite lookalikes better.
Car is currently wearing some chrome bolt-on wire wheels I picked up cheap, but the mags are waiting to go back on.

[Docman]

At this point I'm committed to the classic look, painted wires, BRG paint and black hides.  Although I've seen fine GT6 examples with different wheels and colors, for me nothing else captures the quintessential British GT.

For 5 years my TR6 was my year round, daily driver and aside from the occasional grease migration down the spokes from the hubs and evental rust, the wires were trouble free.  Those wheels, a performance exhaust and the detactable factory steel hardtop (for the Michigan winters) really separated my TR from the rest.  Of the 39 cars I've owned, that car was the most (all around) memorable and enjoyable.  
When I stumbled upon this GT6, I thought that, when set up the same way, this car would provide similar "miles of smiles".  No turning back or varying from the original plan, from here on.  If I find that I require a full new set, than so be it.  

I've researched rebuilding my used worn wheels.  For those of you that were wondering, it is more expensive than buying new - that service is really intended for rare and unavailable wire wheels.

[smithy]

I'm just back from Stoneleigh and my faves of the day were all on wires - a dark blue Stag (which I've seen at a lot of shows, and it looked even better this time) - a White Stag parked in the hall away down at the end, and an earlier burgundy GT6 which looked in nice nick if not over-polished. All of them on chrome wires. Yummy.

[Docman]

Thanks Smithy - how many cars were at Stoneleigh?

Although I prefer wire wheels on any sporting British car, chromes are just are a bit too flahy, too gauche for me.  Also, I guess that I'm a little bit of a purist, I don't think Triumphs were available from the factory with chrome (except Stags - high value cars).  For the longest time, I used to only see chrome wires on E-types. And then I saw one from Brussels - gunmetal grey with PAINTED wires.  Wow was I blown away.  It had a much more purposeful appearance.  I'm surprised more owners don't opt for painted ones. In the states, I believe that chrome wires were the only wheel available on all E-types.  I guess that my fellow Americans like their bling.  Now I see chrome wires on nearly everything, Triumphs, MGs and Healeys - owners wanting to take their classics up to the next level, correctness notwithstanding.

[neilnaz]

You talk about correctness and have wires on a Mk3 GT6?!

[Docman]

Wires aren't on my GT6, quite yet   I'm a bit of a purist but not dyed in the wool, otherwise I wouldn't be fitting a 13 inch steering wheel.  I've read conflicting reports regarding wire wheel availabilty on Mk3 GT6's - my interest is export to the US, where I reside.  My 71 TR6 had painted wires with hex hub caps, new.   I've seen wires / hex hubs on Mk3 GT6's.  Could this have been, a (USA) dealer option?  Who in the club can provide a definitive answer? As much as I want these rims on my car, it is obliging me with considerable expense.  If the car is more correct and has more value without wires, I would like to know.

[rotoflex]

I'm pretty sure that wire wheels were a factory;dealer option on USA GT6 Mk3s.  I'll go rummage for the dealer literature.

[Docman]

(Done a few changes to my membership info - I have a member number now after paying my 45 pounds but still awaiting a password).

I was prepared to purchase new additonal tires (155 X 80) for the wire wheels I am gradually acquiring, but then I saw a set of 175 X 70 on a Spit in California with wire wheels.
The set of tires on my stock steel disc rims are nearly new but I was afraid to run 175 X 70 on the wires.  Can I safely transfer and use these tires on wires?  Both sets of wheels measure 4.5 inches wide - it seems that it shouldn't be a problem, but I wanted to make sure.

[rotoflex]

3106 wrote:

This is look I'm planning:

Normally, I'm in the camp that doesn't care for wires on a Mk3, but I kinda like the looks of that.
It may have something to do with the dark body color, but I'm sure a lot of it is the fat, muscle-y sidewalls.  I don't know if I'd like it as much with lower profile tires.

The BL part numbers for the optional wire wheels on the GT6 Mk3 were
217251 (Prime finish)
151535 (Aluminum finish)
151534 (Lime Green finish !!!!!)

The problem with referencing an observed US GT6 with wider tires on wires is not knowing if the wire wheels observed are the ones from British Leyland.  They could have come from an aftermarket supplier offering them in a wider size.
Dayton Wire Wheels is still selling some of theirs for Spitfire/GT6, although they list only a 4.5 width:
http://daytonwirewheels.com/britishcars.html
That's not to say that in the past they or some other supplier might not have offered some wider, or the car you're looking at has alien hubs and wheels from some other car.

I also would like to reinforce that there should not be any play rocking the wire wheels back and forth (clockwise, anti-clockwise) on the splined hubs.  The classic and once far too common report of the subsequent failure of wire wheels on worn splines is driving along, being surprised seeing a wire wheel pass you go down the road, thinking "What in the world?  A wheel?  And a wire wheel!  Who else is running wire wheels besides me?  OH  HELLLLLLLL....."

How the wheel passes you first has always been part of the mystery and romance of wire wheels.

[Docman]

Rotoflex,

I checked the specs from Tirerack and the OD on 155X80 is 22.8 inches whereas 175X70 OD is 22.7 - not a difference discernable with the eye.  
Although Tirerack doesn't identify the difference in tread width, when I place the two sizes next to each other, the 175X70 tread looks to be just a little wider.  Tirerack does however, report the sidewall width of the 155X80 to be 6.2 inch against the 5 inch sidewall width of the 175X70.  Years back this was sometimes called a "balloon" type tire.  I think you called it a muscle-y appearance.
I wonder if the advantage of using baloon tires with wires is that the more bulbous (and marginally taller) sidewalls allow for more lateral sidewall flex, so that the wire wheels aren't as stressed.  That, and the narrower contact patch (to the road) allows more slip (drift), again less stress on the wire wheels, increasing longevity.

I couldn't tell how wide the wheels on the California Spit were, to be shod with 175X70.  I believe that all Dunlop wires for the Spit/GT6 were 4.5 inches wide, but both Dayton (US) and MWS (UK) also supply 5.5 inchers for Spits/GT6 with recommended 175X70 tire fitment.  As you mentioned, that car may have had wider rims.

I recently bought a new splined adapter and verified that I currently have 2 (mechanically) perfect used wires from the recent set I bought - absolutely no play when the new adapter is inserted into the wheel hubs.  I am going to look at another seller's used set to try and find 2 more perfect fitting wheels.  I'm now convinced that the only way to be sure that used wires are acceptable, is to fit the wheels with a brand new adapter.  I'm gussing that the majority of used wires being sold, are worthless.

Oh, and thanks for researching wires as an option in the US for Mk3 GT6's.  I'll use my set of hex hubs to provide a correct look for a federal 1972.  I'm pretty sure that Mallard was a correct color for that year, too.

[Richard B]

Please be careful. Wheels should always be correctly fitted and secure on the car.

The scariest story with wire wheels I was told; was with spin-on wire wheels, where the adapter kept the wheel on the hub, but the splines had worn.

An emergency stop and the front brakes locked but the wheels kept turning because of play in the splines.




I would lean towards the more forgiving 155/80 x 13 OE tyres if they were the US dealer option for the reasons you have listed.

You don't see many wire wheel cars in the UK now. Although an early Spitfire on wires does look nice.


However the thought of wires on a 150mph E'Type Jaguar horrifys me  ??)

[Richard B]

3106 wrote:

(Done a few changes to my membership info - I have a member number now after paying my 45 pounds but still awaiting a password).

Welcome to the club.

Sorry , link no longer available

Have you read this? You do not get a separate password. You have to register your membership against your foum account.

[smithy]

3106 wrote:

Thanks Smithy - how many cars were at Stoneleigh?

Although I prefer wire wheels on any sporting British car, chromes are just are a bit too flahy, too gauche for me.  Also, I guess that I'm a little bit of a purist, I don't think Triumphs were available from the factory with chrome (except Stags - high value cars).  For the longest time, I used to only see chrome wires on E-types. And then I saw one from Brussels - gunmetal grey with PAINTED wires.  Wow was I blown away.  It had a much more purposeful appearance.  I'm surprised more owners don't opt for painted ones. In the states, I believe that chrome wires were the only wheel available on all E-types.  I guess that my fellow Americans like their bling.  Now I see chrome wires on nearly everything, Triumphs, MGs and Healeys - owners wanting to take their classics up to the next level, correctness notwithstanding.

Sorry Bob, missed this post. I'd say between two and three hundred cars in the halls and behind the wire, and another three or four hundred more parked around outside. A pretty good show - and I'm surprised there hasn't been a thread about it, really. (Maybe I'll start one).
I think you're right re: E-types, and btw I love a bit of bling too, me. Never knowingly under-blinged.

[thescrapman]

A 175/70 on a 4.5 rim is a normal combination.

It is also a more plentiful size, and thus a more ecconomic fitment, teh tyres will be cheaper.

Cheers

Colin